Santa Cruz Volleyball Forum

I am pretty much tired of searching and asking the AVP and others about the open hand setting rules, mainly this "no more than 2 rotation BS spin rule" I have come to find in so many tournaments. I am looking for set in stone rules published by the AVP on overhead setting rules. I want to know how long you can "catch and release" the ball for. How many times can the ball spin if any. I want a real answer.

I am an indoor player who has been playing outdoor and I get tired of these catch and carry players calling my sets bad because of rotation on overhead set. Even thou my release is quick and clean without double contact or release I still get called on this crap rule which I have yet to find that doesn't exist.

Could someone please shed some light on this matter, and please no opinions I am looking for a rule book which is current from the AVP. Thank you!

Sorry, you ask for something that can not be done. Life is uncertain, particularly so in the enforcement of open-hand setting rules.

AVP and CBVA rules are defined such that it is impossible to reach agreement on what constitutes a clean set.

"Visible rest?" This is a useless definition. *Every* handset (except for those by Kent Kitchel, who clearly uses magic) comes to visible rest, IMHO.

"Simultaneous contact?" Measured by what precision? 1/10 second? 1/100??

Standards vary from beach to beach, and from group to group. Watch for a while and you will know what is accepted locally.

So: count on having disagreements, and thus learn something about yourself and how you resolve (or don't resolve) conflict.

If you've been watching the game for a while, you will know in your heart whether your set was clean. If you have to ask yourself... it wasn't.

- kurt

Good reference Kurt.... Kent Kitchel has been one of the standards in Santa Cruz for the past 20 yrs. It is unfortunate that many of today's Main St. players did not get to watch K.K.'s style. It became a pretty high standard and had a major influence on how setting was called in our corner of the Volleyball Universe . It was reflective of an age of volleyball where "style" was as important as the substance and outcome of a game. The skills of ball handling were the true equalizers of height and jumping ability (that is why Phil Kaplan and I were such a FORCE to deal with during our "Reign of Terror"). The amount of time it would take to master the "art of volleyball", to quote Dennis Hare, was part of the allure of the game. It reflected a lifestyle choice, sort of a distant cousin of the California Surfer.
A bit of history.... in the early years of beach volleyball there was a classic rivalry between Ron Von Hagen and Jim Menges. Back in "those days", hand setting rules were much more liberal and rotation on the ball was not an indication of mis-handling. It is part of volleyball folklore that Jim "Mingo" (a bump setter) started going after the refs when he was playing Von Hagen to "CALL THOSE SETS" as a way to increase his opportunity to beat Von Hagen, (who due to his muscle bound arms had a very awkward setting motion and the ball came out a with noticeable spin). This started to affect other players and eventually started the standard of "clean hand setting". This influence would continue for several decades in the Mecca of beach volleyball and the Southern California Standard was set (opps... another pun hits the back corner!).
Flash forward to the most recent decade(s) of the FIVB and the world wide volleyball community, where the "California Standard" had little influence on the way the International game is being marketed, promoted, and last of all played.
I cringe at this next statement.... "In the Old days... " the aesthetics of playing this game made it a joy to watch as much as play. Rhythm, tempo, and the dance quality set against the beauty of summer sunset all added up to something that has it addictive characteristics that most players will deny!
I just stared reffing indoor events and have had to learn how to override my instincts to blow the play dead when the ball leaves the player's hands looking like a spinning top with a finger still attached. The indoor game's "downward spiral" (yes, pun intended!) have made the subjectivity of an already "valid gray area" of handling the ball a very confusing and frustrating issue. The AVP standard of setting is not what it used to be, as the game has been directed away from skills and re-directed into dynamics and POWER. That is the influence of the FIVB and a world that plays the game with a different set of guidelines.
I know I rambled a bit here.... the answer to the original question is........ in my perspective...... the outdoor game has a higher standard of ball handling and hopefully that will be maintained. There is no objective rule for number of rotations equaling a mishandled ball.
In a pick up game my advice is to "play it out" and talk about it after the ball hits the ground. In a tournament, have your ref stand at the pole and make the call. It is one play among the hundreds that will happen that day.
see ya at the beach April 25th. Check the site http://www.CBVA.com mhullo

Whatever it maybe I want a flipping rulebook. I want a "set" standard not to have to adjust to every ref at every place I play. Why is this so hard? Why does the AVP FIVB leave so much grey area? Answer the damn question and let people start to play again.

wolfie458:

I relate to your concerns. It can be frustrating whenever "judgment" calls are involved. But that is also one of the reasons we play sports since it is not always black and white. If I may, I would suggest a couple of things. Trying making your goal to become a better beach setter by focusing on setting as many balls with your hands as you can get to. Accept the "throw" calls from opponents knowing that you are improving. Take some of the focus off of winning and losing the game. Second, maybe the players on your court want to improve their setting as well. You could play games with "no throw" days. Anything goes as we learn what we can set with our hands and what we can't.

Both of these methods have helped me along the way but you have to be patient (which I'm not always that great at!).

Good luck,

Seth

Honeslty It is not the throw part that bothers me most people can see a very bad deep dish. What bothers me is all the idiots on the courts and torunoment play who keep siteing rules that do not exsit nor ever have.

The ball can not have more than 2 roations. This is a bs rule. Nowhere does it exsit. I want people to stop saying it does.


in fact from avp director:

I was forwarded your request for some clarification of hand setting rules. Though criteria are set, calling hand sets is the most subjective of calls and we have more than our share of disagreements on the AVP Tour regarding what is and isn’t a “throw”. Having said that….

A set ball may not come to rest, a “lift”, or be contacted successively, a “double hit”. Spin imparted on the ball while setting may indicate a mishandled ball, but in and of itself does not determine a fault.

Even with these criteria, calling setting faults has much to do with the “standard” set in a league, on a Tour or at an age-level caliber of play.

Tour Director
AVP Pro Beach Volleyball Tour Inc


So why are people still saying this is a rule to judge by?

Those rules from the AVP tour defines the wording associated with a mishandled ball rather well. Any level of tournament play still NEEDS a ref making that subjective judgment call. Every contact /rally within a game is unique and the setting rule can' t be something scribed in stone.
But in my 33+ years of playing this game on the beach, I have never heard of using the actual number of spins as a the guideline for a throw....
hope you find some peace with this issue... mhull